Everyday Systems

I discovered this site last week.
I am giving it my best shot.
I have been reading many of the daily check in threads and am most discouraged. Hardly anyone on these threads has lost weight.

The general tendency is to start enthusiastically, then fail . then start again. Then fail again.

Is there really any hope for the majority of us fatties?


Please don't anyone direct me to the success testimonials. I have read those too. Success seems to be the exception rather than the rule

Hi, Jasper! I definitely wish you luck in reaching your goals!

I personally think that there is success in perseverance. Sometimes when I stall in weight loss, for weeks or even months at a time, I get frustrated, but then I realize that with some of the bad habits I have with food (I'm a binger) I could easily weigh twice what I weigh if I didn't at least keep trying.

I may never be skinny or get to the point that I can eat whatever I want whenever I want and be able to regulate my eating habits without having to rely on simple rules (like No-S) to help guide me, but I definitely think that there's hope for each of us to keep learning about ourselves and learning about our bodies, and finding ourselves healthier and more comfortable in our own skins in the future than we may be right now.

I guess it really all depends on how you define success.

This is my experience with No S:

Try, fail, quit.

Try, succeed, get discouraged because I don't lose the weight in the first week, quit.

Try, get hungry, quit.

Try, too many temptations, quit.

Try, see how much I can load on a plate (legal but not moderate), wonder why I'm not losing weight, quit.

Try, add mods, quit.

This is my fault, not the program. No S is solid, it just needs to be diligently, consistently, and patiently followed. I am trying to do better this time around.

The thing is, when you really figure this out and are successful long term, eating is normal. Other diets need continuing diet counting. NoS teaches normalcy. I have been here quite a while and can tell you that I know of tons of super successful people from nos. Our problem is that they no longer need us.

Welcome jasper!

I think No-S is easy as in "not complex", but it isn't necessarily easy as in "requiring no effort". Unlike other countries, we no longer have a culture that supports the three meal / no snacks structure, so we are trying to create tradition / structure for ourselves. That can be tricky.

As I understand the research, permanent weight loss is a tough goal, regardless of the method used. I've got no idea how the No-S "stats" would stack up against other ways of eating or exercising.

Speaking for myself, I used my check in thread a lot when I was just starting out and needed the accountability. The support from the community here is really amazing, and definitely helped keep me on track.

Now five months in, having lost the weight I wanted to lose and feeling fairly confident in my habits, I use my check in thread a lot less. Since I'm not struggling, there is less to bump my thread to the top.

Also, I practice what Reinhard calls "negative tracking". That is, with a few exceptions, I ONLY post when I have a red day. This is an extra incentive not to have a red, and cuts down on time spent posting. So, if you read my check in thread for the past few months, you will get a negative impressions, as you'll mostly see me writing about red days. This is because for the green days (the vast majority of the time) I am silent.

So, you may be seeing more people asking for help / reporting failure in the daily check ins because for a lot of posters that is what daily check in thread are for. People who want to report "yay, this is working I've lost a lot" generally use the testimonials threads.

Ultimately, I can't answer your question. Message board members can only tell you about their personal experience, and the plural of anecdote is not data. I can only say "it has worked for me". I am one of those who found that No-S just "clicked", so there was no stop / start. But since you say you're not interested in testimonials, that isn't going to help.

I'd encourage you to keep on giving it your best shot and see where it takes you!

I have lost weight Jasper. Two and a half years ago I went from 190 to 172. I am back at 190, but my range seems to be the 175 to 190 range. I lift weights as well so I think dome of my extra weight is artificial. I think if you peruse other sites you''ll see the same issues.

Good luck and keep at it.

I'm one of the successes. I don't track on the check-in thread--it isn't helpful to me. I don't feel the need for that level of accountability. So, the Check-in Thread is a very limited snapshot of *some* people using NoS who want to take the extra time to maintain a thread.

It seems to me that those who have the hardest time losing weight have less of a problem with the efficacy of NoS and more of a problem with reprogramming their thoughts (we often call it "diethead" around here) and they carry that problem with them when they leave (and come back).

However, I've also noticed that many have found that with each return to NoS their unhelpful diethead chatter decreases while good eating habits increase. THAT is a huge success, all on its own. And those who keep on, eventually do reap the benefit of their hard-won good eating habits.

You kind of leave us no choices. You point out all the failures, ask if there is any hope, but then tell us not to direct you to the testimonials.

Are you waiting for a guarantee? There isn't any.

This site is casual and there is no official data. As someone else said, we are creating our own culture here, but this program is the system that millions of slim people use naturally and happily in two European countries where the obesity rates are under 10%. That pretty much beats any diet success here.

I guess we sound like other programs or "diets" that say it's not the fault of the program only in our case, as I said before, this is how the majority of people live and maintain slim weights in France and Italy (or did until American habits starting infiltrating in the last decade.)

What are your options? You know that with traditional dieting, the failure rate is 97%. In fact, researcher Baumeister said if you want to lose weight, don't do two things: don't go on a diet and don't swear off any food group. He said basically you have to determine rules that get you to limit the food you eat in situations. That is exactly what No S is.

Your motivation is a big part of it, too. Why do you want to lose weight? Is it just for vanity? Realistically, that hasn't worked well for most people, though it causes them a lot of misery. Yes, yes, the successes are there but they are the EXCEPTIONS.

For Reinhard, he knew he was eating immoderately and that bothered him enough to change it. Others have serious health conditions that finally galvanize them. I knew I felt crappy binging and overeating and I didn't want to live like that forever. And you have to be able to keep reminding yourself what your motivation is.

Look, when you finally accept that you are going to have to change your life and consistently eat less if you want to feel better, you have a chance. You are going to have to face down desires to eat sometimes when you're not supposed to. I say No S makes it easier, but not easy. Easy is another exception.

No matter what you do, you're going to have to determine what foods work for you and just how much dense food you can live with or without.
It will involve an absolute commitment to learning how much you really need to sustain yourself for health and real pleasure, not the false pleasure of overeating. Is it even a pleasure to overeat, more than the few minutes it takes to eat? What about the effects of lethargy and heaviness?

Then again, maybe for you it's not a false pleasure. Many people in the world eat a lot, are overweight, and enjoy life. They often live where there isn't as much fat prejudice, so there's less pressure. Just lucky, I guess.

If you're convinced it's hopeless, it would be better to look for help in learning to accept your body as it is and get on with the rest of your life. In fact, you're going to have to do this even if you're successful with No S because it will leave you with a lot of time you would have spent "pursuing" and eating food, which is not true of many other programs.

Is there a chance? I think so, but it's as much up to you as it is to the program. No S just cuts down on the things that most people find hardest to sustain. But it's not automatic.


Good luck with coming to peace over this issue in your life.

Hi Jasper,

I am one of those who tries, fails and returns. I have lost a lot of weight and subsequently have gained more than I lost.
This isn't because No S doesn't work - it works really well for me when I follow the rules consistently. However, the thing with No S is that there are no gimmicks and novelty and that means there is nowhere to hide. You can't count points, or track carbs or do whatever WW, Slimming World or the latest fad diet says. You can't sit in a cold bath or tick off cups of black coffee. There is no displacement activity because No S takes up no time in your day - so you are therefore forced to confront what is making you overeat. And that is harder than tracking or counting.

It takes a long time to form new habits - much longer than 21 days. I think I read somewhere it takes 4 years - but I'm sure someone will set me straight on that. So this is not a quick fix. I'm sure you have other habits which you sometimes manage to follow and sometimes don't - but you make the best of it because perfection doesn't bother you in these areas and because what you are doing is good enough. I think that is the difference between No S and other diets - this is lifelong, perfection won't always be possible and seeing results can be slow.

And actually -it's great that people keep coming back when they fail. It means that we value the site and the support, we know that this is a sane way of eating and we know we can make it work in the long term. I wonder how many failed WW members keep going back...

Good luck with this - looking forward to hearing how you are getting on

It depends what you count as a failure.

Will you lose as much on NoS as you would following a strict calorie counting diet? Probably not. However we KNOW that a lot of people don't maintain weight loss after following such a diet. NoS is all about a sustainable, moderate way of eating that you can continue for life. Many check ins that I read talk a lot about how having a healthier way of thinking about food and eating is helpful, no matter what the end results.

I don't know if I'd count as a success. I've been following NoS on and off (more on than off) for over a year, and from when I started I'm probably about 8-10 pounds downt. I'm still overweight, but haven't put ON any which I inevitably would have if I hadn't found NoS. One of my main aims was to not creep up into the 'obese' BMI category, and in that I've been successful. I have had periods of a month or two where I haven't followed NoS much if at all, months of great compliance and months with lots of red/fail days. Overall I'm happier to be at least trying to eat moderately than to not be trying at all. Plus, I know full well that I wouldn't commit to or follow a restrictive diet for any length of time - it's just not something I can do.

NoS isn't for everyone, but don't seek out other people's difficulties as a way to convince yourself it won't work for you.

What a lot of great replies! I am finding this conversation enlightening and useful.

idon'tknow posted:

It takes a long time to form new habits - much longer than 21 days. I think I read somewhere it takes 4 years - but I'm sure someone will set me straight on that. So this is not a quick fix.

I had many loving family members tell me this after my first insane low-calorie diet in high school. I of course balked and went on to continue the diet/binge cycle for 12 years. Looking back, I think I would much rather take the 4 years - with bursts of hope, seeing some success along with some setbacks, but ultimately knowing that this would work to limit my binges and moderate my eating in the long run if I just continued to stick with it. And that I could feel like a normal eater more days of the week than not and probably maintain more or less a normal weight. Instead I pursued my way, which led me to being heavier than I started and worse, hopelessness surrounding my eating.

I don't think anyone could convince me otherwise at the time but now looking back at my options - even if it would have taken 4 years to build the No S habit for eating it's so much better than the 12 I suffered through.

Hopefully we can all encourage each other to stick with it.

thanks you one and all. What wonderful considered replies.

First , can I state clearly, I am NOT in any way knocking NoS as a diet, far from it. It is almost genius in its simplicity.

My lament was centred around the fact that fatties like me( going by the check in threads ) appear to not even be able to get it right with such a basic, seemingly foolproof plan.

What the heck is wrong with us ? !

I hold down a demanding responsible job, I seem to be raising three healthy well mannered children ( fingers crossed, not done yet ). WHy the heck can't I consistently , day in, day out , control what I put in my mouth and hence the size of my belly?

I see why many conventional diets are almost doomed to fail long term for all the reasons Reinhart gives. But following noS , on paper, seems bound to succeed! But still we mess up .



Thanks in particular to JamminJan, for making me laugh with your diet history "Try, fail.. quit " etc. Very funny , and sadly, familiar.

Thanks to those of you who pointed out that many succeed and don't hang around to keep posting.

I am absolutely giving this my best shot and will put my head on the block and start my own check in thread .

No S isn't the kind of diet where you should expect to see results in a few days. The time scale for losing weight on No S is more like weeks to months. Think of it as a long-term investment.

jasper wrote:My lament was centred around the fact that fatties like me( going by the check in threads ) appear to not even be able to get it right with such a basic, seemingly foolproof plan.

What the heck is wrong with us ? !

I hold down a demanding responsible job, I seem to be raising three healthy well mannered children ( fingers crossed, not done yet ). WHy the heck can't I consistently , day in, day out , control what I put in my mouth and hence the size of my belly?

Because you're fighting millions of years of evolution. We evolved in an environment where there wasn't always enough food around. We evolved lots of strategies to cope with that. One of them is to store fat in times when there is plenty of food, so you can live through the next time when there isn't enough food.

Now first-world people, particularly first-world people who are not poor, are in an environment where there is always too much food around. I've read estimates that the food industry in the US produces something like 3900 calories per day per person, if the amount of food produced is divided by population. That's way more than anyone needs to eat in a day.

It's kind of like if you took Antarctic penguins and moved them to the tropics. The penguins evolved in an environment where there wasn't enough heat. They have lots of adaptations aimed at conserving heat. You take them and put them in the tropics, where the problem is that there is too much heat, and they're going to have problems.

thanks nicest, I appreciate you joining the discussion. I have heard that perspective before and I am sure it's part of it.


However if I look at my closest ten friends , NONE of them are fat, only me. I'd say over half of them have to make a conscious effort to stay slim, but the point is they manage to do it.

One keeps hearing statistics about over half the population being overweight , but amongst my peers/social group of working professional parents in our 40s and 50s, being fat is rare.

jasper wrote:I hold down a demanding responsible job, I seem to be raising three healthy well mannered children ( fingers crossed, not done yet ). WHy the heck can't I consistently , day in, day out , control what I put in my mouth and hence the size of my belly?

Well, maybe partly because you are holding down that job and raising three kids. People talk about willpower "overload" - your brain is only able to exercise self discipline on so many fronts at once. That's one reason I like No-S, after the initial work to set up habits, the willpower demand is less (not nil, but less).

Also, imagine you lived in a world where you were constantly surrounded by advertising and messages encouraging you to do poorly at your job, and using your most basic instinctive drives to do so. Imagine if your culture had lost any tradition of working hours, work ethic, etc. Imagine that instead of one accreditation / governing body, your profession had hundreds of different experts who all gave conflicting information and insisted that the way you did your job was wrong and harmful. That's where I sometimes feel like I am with regard food.

Ironchef, I can't thank you enough for that - your first paragraph , about maybe it's BECAUSE I am holding down a responsible job and raising 3 kids. I have honestly never considered that might be a factor , and I have given this a LOT of thought. I think you might be on to something with the idea of willpower overload.

Regards your second paragraph, I agree totally . So much information out there on weight loss , so many conflicting theories. My head hurts sometimes from thinking about it all.

May I ask how much weigh you lost and in what timescale?
Many thanks

jasper wrote:May I ask how much weigh you lost and in what timescale?

I've lost 15 pounds so far (just over 10% of my body weight), and am still experiencing a slow downward drift, so not sure where I'll end up. I lost 6 pounds in the first 21 days, then slowed right down to about 1/2 pound a week at best. Right now I'd say I'm losing around a pound each month. I think the slow pace is partly inherent to No-S, and partly because I'm a smallish woman with not that much to lose.

I've lost 20 pounds at least 4 times in my life by bouncing up and down between my highest and lowest weights due to dieting down and then eating my way back up. I'm very hopeful that No-S will finally be that sustainable, sane solution I've been looking for.

If I lived in Scotland I' d be living on meat pies and Guiness. (Which I know comes from Ireland, but I bet there is some north of Hadrian' s Wall.)

nice work , ironchef. I found your check in thread. It's sane and inspiring.

over43, any more of those ridiculous stereotypes and I will come after you in my kilt and thump you over the head with my bagpipes.

The difference between the daily checkin and success threads is that on daily check in you see every mood swing, every failure, every bump up in weight for those that report while on the success thread you see the grand summary.

There is hope for you as long as you don't expect every day to be one day of weight loss after another. Granularity is not your friend when you are getting motivated.

Think in terms of years, not months and definitely not weeks.

No S is the way to live the rest of your life. Recent research has indicated that in 10 years you will have changed, just like you are different than you were ten years ago. No S can be part of your 10 year change. In 10 years, you will still be alive. What do you want to be besides 10 years older?

I reached my goal weight with NoS (a healthy BMI). True that it's probably more like a milestone but I think it's definitely possible to lose weight on NoS. The main problem for me is lack of patience.

It's such a great community here and to be able to share the little setbacks is exactly why I think people succeed overall. If you want motivation I suggest you check out the testimonial pages.

NoS is hard and frustrating at times and easy and fun at others. What I love about these threads: they don't pretend it's all good and easy. When it's hard it's hard and that's ok as the next meal and therefore potential success is just around the corner.