Everyday Systems

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:34 pm**

i have been thinking a lot lately about how diets in general actually make a person think about food more. sometimes this is a good thing if the person really has no idea how much or when they are eating during the day. but i realized for people who obsess, it can be a very bad thing to be thinking of food all the time. i like the idea of no s because the idea of 3meals a day is very appealing no real time needed to "think" about food, just try and succeed by having the 3 meals, each meal on 1 plate. sounds easy enough, but with the diet mentality so fresh in each of our heads it is so hard to do some days. i think also the fact that in the USA it is encouraged to snack all day, eat all kinds of things like desserts just randomly because 'someone brought it' etc, is just so acceptable here. it really shouldn't be but it is. crazy how that works. anyway, would love to know others' thougths on this.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:50 pm**

I think the "someone brought it so I have to eat it" idea is just disastrous! And it's also how people who don't want to diet trick other people into going off their food plans. It becomes group collusion to stay overweight! There is nothing wrong with saying no. If someone brought in some heroin, you wouldn't be obliged to shoot up, and it should be the same with foods. Everything you put in your mouth involves choice; there is just no such thing as "have" to eat it.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:38 pm**

MJ7910 wrote: i think also the fact that in the USA it is encouraged to snack all day, eat all kinds of things like desserts just randomly because 'someone brought it' etc, is just so acceptable here. it really shouldn't be but it is. crazy how that works. anyway, would love to know others' thougths on this.

Last night I was reading Outside the Box: Why Our Children Need REAL FOOD, Not Food Products by Jeannie Marshall. She is a Canadian living in Rome. She wrote some about food culture:

Jeannie Marshall wrote:A food culture has something to do with recipes and something to do with the ingredients, but there are also rules. A food culture organizes your eating instead of allowing you to graze, nibble and snack all day long. Yes, spaghetti al ragÃ¹ might be part of the culture, but you don't eat it at any time, and you don't get a plastic container and then eat it on the bus on the way home from work. By the traditional rules of this food culture, you eat at a table at the appropriate time of day with other people. (Italians feel sad when they see someone eating alone.) The food culture sets rules for consumption that puts limits on our tendency to overindulge. When I first came to Italy, snack foods were still fairly limited. We didn't see the racks of packaged snack foods that have since appeared in the coffee bars and tabacchi. If you went into a shop that sold slices of pizza at around four or five o'clock in the afternoon, the person behind the counter would offer to cut you a very small piece, about six to eight bites in size, and you'd have to coax and persuade him with stories about the meagerness of your earlier lunch before he'd give you anything bigger.

Generally a food culture sets prescribed mealtimes. Yet you don't feel deprived because you're really not thinking about food all the time -- which might seem counterintuitive since you're surrounded by all this great food. but if you don't constantly see advertisements reminding you to eat, and if you don't see people eating all the time, if it's not acceptable in the culture to walk around eating and drinking, you don't do it. For instance, a good friend of mine, Brenda, came to visit us from New York shortly after we moved to Rome, and she really wanted to try a creamy pastry that she saw in a pasticceria. The man who sold it to her wrapped it beautifully in paper and ribbon. Brenda took it outside, unwrapped it on the street and started to eat it as we strolled around Trastevere. Within two bites she became extremely self-conscious, aware of the disapproving glances directed toward her, and she realized that eating a wonderful creamy pastry on the street wasn't really done. It's not culturally acceptable. It's not that Italians disapprove of pastry, but there is a time and a place for it, and that is after dinner. This might be why American adults associate chocolate cake with guilt while the French associate it with celebration.

A food culture is also about community. In Italy there are special food festivals -- le sagre -- that run from fall through spring to celebrate single foods. In the late fall there are olive festivals to celebrate the olive harvest and in spring you can find celebrations of the artichoke.

Those are the elements of a food culture,as far as I've observed. But there's more below the surface. Just as the slow-cooked mingling of freshly chopped tomatoes; green, fruity, fresh olive oil; and sea salt produces a flavourful sauce that defies those simple ingredients, so too do the health benefits of a food culture go far beyond the nutrients in the food. "History" and "tradition" are other words for the accumulation of hundreds, sometimes thousands of years of food and health knowledge contained in a food culture. But this knowledge is not always (or even often) consciously understood, and it's not the main point; rather, it's the flavour, the aroma, the pleasure, the sense of hunger satisfied in the company of people close to us that keep a system like this going. Italians don't eat the way they do because it's healthy, but because it tastes good and because it tastes familiar. Health is a side benefit.

I didn't become so fascinated by the food culture of Rome because of its health benefits (there are many cultures that are even healthier). I was attracted to it because of the and the sociable aspects of the culture. While I was out smelling the fruit and admiring the vegetables, the fact that this food is linked to the health of the people who eat it never really entered my mind.

Our food culture is whatever, whenever. And the food is generally linked to our increased weight and lack of health. Like Michael Pollan has written, "What an extraordinary accomplishment for a civilization: to have developed the one diet that reliably makes its people sick!"

Posted: **Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:21 am**

Although I see that our culture has ridiculous assumptions about eating, I can't really blame all my thinking about food on it. Unfortunately, I am also influenced by the bodies in the media. It's not the burden it used to be but I still seem to spend mental energy fighting the expectation to be thinner or firmer and that gets mixed up with food. I still consider No S to have made wonderful improvements in my life, but I'm not immune to the pressures. Yet they were internalized a long time ago so that I was subject to some obsession even when I was overseas with little outer pressures.

I am going to be working on a plan to limit thinking about food and body issues in the next week or so. It should be a nice adjunct to No S.

I also know I need to get my exercise routine down. I believe (and I'll find out) that if I am consistently doing my minimum, that it will to some degree free me because I will be doing my part. I think one of the reasons I'm still irked about the whole thing is that I know I do have the time but don't do the work. So my inner self won't let me go until I do.

Posted: **Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:40 am**

That's a great plan oolala!

I think that thinking about food constantly is a HUGE struggle! Because of our whatever,whenever food culture as someone else noted, we tend to look for opportunities to indulge all the time. I personally feel really deprived and "left out" at times because I want to be in on the treats with everyone else. What we don't realize is how bad it feels to indulge every day all the time. It is really only fun when it happens sometimes.

I am trying to stop thinking about it so much, but it is definitely tough. I try to look at it like this; I have all this mental energy that I focus onto food/eating/dieting,etc. But what would I rather put that energy into? What would I be thinking about if I was already at a healthy weight? Play piano? Ride my bike? Read novels by my favorite authors? Plan a vacation? The possibilities are endless! I try to think about what would my thin self do, what would I rather be thinking about?

Posted: **Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:21 am**

I amended this question from a psychotherapist to an alcoholic: The question is not why do you drink? The question is what would you do if you didn't drink? Bottom line, we have to do something else with our time- and our thoughts.

Posted: **Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:09 am**

oolala53 wrote:Unfortunately, I am also influenced by the bodies in the media. It's not the burden it used to be but I still seem to spend mental energy fighting the expectation to be thinner or firmer and that gets mixed up with food.

Those bodies in the media are not only rare, they're not "normal" and the people who have them are paid to have them. However, we look at them as if they are normal.

Many mornings when I walk the dog we pass a gym called Boot Camp Fitness (or something like that). There are usually more women than men there and they are abnormally slim and firm. When did being abnormally firm become the norm? It's been relatively recently, and I'm not at all sure it's a good thing.

Posted: **Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:18 pm**

Two things:
1) I completely agree about being a victim of the media's idea of firm and slim.
I look good and healthy but always think, "I could be better...". "I could be slimmer..." It's never good enough.
But then I remind myself that I'm eating well, have a lot of energy and have a HEALTHY physical body I should be grateful for. But yes, the pressure is SURELY there.

2) I definitely agree on the thinking about food less being important. I haven't been on the threads much and am realizing how busy summer and activities and life is, that food is taking a back-seat. I love it. But I'm also aware how this isn't the norm all the time, and I still need good solid habits to keep me in line. But, I'm constantly pushing away food thoughts to focus on the life around me. Easier said than done.

Posted: **Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:20 pm**

JayEll wrote:I think the "someone brought it so I have to eat it" idea is just disastrous! And it's also how people who don't want to diet trick other people into going off their food plans. It becomes group collusion to stay overweight! There is nothing wrong with saying no. If someone brought in some heroin, you wouldn't be obliged to shoot up, and it should be the same with foods. Everything you put in your mouth involves choice; there is just no such thing as "have" to eat it.

totally agree! yet, that is how our society seems to work. we "have" to eat what someone brought. believe it or not, there are those that actually consider it rude not to!

Posted: **Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:26 pm**

oolala53 wrote:
I am going to be working on a plan to limit thinking about food and body issues in the next week or so. It should be a nice adjunct to No S.

i for one am very interested in doing this too. i have a vacation coming up and i want to put in some energy researching the local area, planning, etc. so i think i need to focus on that and less on food and body image. that is the plan anyway.

very intersted to see how oolala53 and others plan to limit their food thoughts. what do you do if one happens, how do you switch thinking?

Posted: **Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:50 pm**

MJ7910 wrote:
oolala53 wrote:
I am going to be working on a plan to limit thinking about food and body issues in the next week or so. It should be a nice adjunct to No S.

i for one am very interested in doing this too. i have a vacation coming up and i want to put in some energy researching the local area, planning, etc. so i think i need to focus on that and less on food and body image. that is the plan anyway.

Good idea. Distraction is a classic way to keep your thoughts from going in a direction you don't want them to go.

Remember, what you eat (or don't eat) and your body image do NOT define what you are like as a person, or your worth. They're not the most important things about you as a person.

There are lots of other things to do and to think about other than food and what you look like. It's just a question of finding some that you enjoy.

Posted: **Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:43 am**

I find the whole topic of "thinking about food" interesting and finally have time to jot down a few thoughts of my own.

I think it is quite normal to be thinking about food a lot of the time. Historically, much of life revolved around getting food on the table. Gosh, it seems that much of my life (family of 7 with a hospitality ministry which means I'm currently cooking for 14(!) people on a daily basis) revolves around food.

But the big difference is the thinking about food is not an obsession, not marked with fear, not filled with "Oh no!" panic....it just fits into the rhythm of life, it is part of life. It involves far more than eating...there is planning, and prepping, and cooking (Lots of this as one gets away from processed food). Perhaps even a garden. And all of this is NORMAL outside of fast-paced Western culture.

We live in south-central Europe and most people still cook most of their own food. Most have a garden. Many conversations revolve around food. Obesity is only starting to make an appearance as the younger generation is losing the ability and appreciation of cooking and eating a good meal.

My oldest daughter, living and working in NYC, enjoys cooking and plans out her menus--just for her. I was surprised when she said that after finishing breakfast, she happily anticipates lunch. She is slim... She enjoys *meals* and all that is involved in getting one on the table. So do I.

When the children were little, we had a sweet, classic book, entitled "Manners Can Be Fun". Well, I think "Food Can Be Fun" and encourage myself (and others) to make it so, enjoying the whole process of creating good (not fancy, gourmet) meals, and not merely focusing only on the actual act of eating.

Posted: **Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:12 pm**

vmsurbat wrote:But the big difference is the thinking about food is not an obsession, not marked with fear, not filled with "Oh no!" panic....it just fits into the rhythm of life, it is part of life. It involves far more than eating...there is planning, and prepping, and cooking (Lots of this as one gets away from processed food). Perhaps even a garden. And all of this is NORMAL outside of fast-paced Western culture.

I think the problem might not be thinking about food all the time, but that thinking about food all the time and having food easily available all the time, the way we do in modern developed countries, are not a good combination. Kind of like how being sleepy isn't in and of itself a problem, but being sleepy and driving a motor vehicle are not a good combination.

Posted: **Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:15 pm**

I find myself still thinking a lot of "this is how you don't overeat" kinds of thoughts as well as congratulating myself about it so that it's about control, not just about how great food is. It's weird because I don't feel on the edge about it but I still think about it as if I did. Sounds paradoxical, but true. It's as if I've spent so many years thinking about it that my mind is just used to bringing it up. But it's also an area in my life that is less stress now and other areas are not, so it may be a way of keeping the stressful thoughts at bay. I'd like to learn to widen the variety. It may mean spending less time on the boards, which I find so enjoyable. But I may need to see what life is like without it.

Posted: **Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:01 pm**

vmsurbat wrote: I think it is quite normal to be thinking about food a lot of the time. Historically, much of life revolved around getting food on the table. Gosh, it seems that much of my life (family of 7 with a hospitality ministry which means I'm currently cooking for 14(!) people on a daily basis) revolves around food.

But the big difference is the thinking about food is not an obsession, not marked with fear, not filled with "Oh no!" panic....it just fits into the rhythm of life, it is part of life. It involves far more than eating...there is planning, and prepping, and cooking (Lots of this as one gets away from processed food). Perhaps even a garden. And all of this is NORMAL outside of fast-paced Western culture.

We live in south-central Europe and most people still cook most of their own food. Most have a garden. Many conversations revolve around food. Obesity is only starting to make an appearance as the younger generation is losing the ability and appreciation of cooking and eating a good meal.

I agree.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:46 pm**

wosnes wrote: Those bodies in the media are not only rare, they're not "normal" and the people who have them are paid to have them. However, we look at them as if they are normal.
.

too true...

Was reading about some workouts that some actors did for various movies a few days ago...

6+ hours working out a day is NOT normal...
http://www.mensfitness.co.uk/exercise/c ... rkout.html

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:33 pm**

mastermesh wrote:
wosnes wrote: Those bodies in the media are not only rare, they're not "normal" and the people who have them are paid to have them. However, we look at them as if they are normal.
.
too true...

Was reading about some workouts that some actors did for various movies a few days ago...

6+ hours working out a day is NOT normal...
http://www.mensfitness.co.uk/exercise/c ... rkout.html

This article needs to be taken with a grain of salt. A grizzly bear could not survive this workout.

Obviously, this guy is genetically gifted (upper 1% of the population) and gains muscle relatively easy. However, to achieve these results in such a short period of time:

1.This guy had to take a panoply of drugs (steroids, HGH) to recuperate from this workout and/or

2.this is a press release from his publicist, more fiction than fact.

I certainly do not want his physique.

Posted: **Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:35 pm**

wosnes wrote:Our food culture is whatever, whenever.

wosnes,... So very true.
Love your post, and shared it with my response at DietHobby.
http://www.diethobby.com/blog.php?ax=v&nid=652

Posted: **Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:05 pm**

oolala53 wrote:I amended this question from a psychotherapist to an alcoholic: The question is not why do you drink? The question is what would you do if you didn't drink? Bottom line, we have to do something else with our time- and our thoughts.

I have been reading fewer posts over the summer, and I missed this conversation. I just read it all and found some great insights on everything from body image to food preparation to thoughts about food. However, the above post hit home for me the most. Whether we are talking food or alcohol or some other crutch such as coffee or cigarettes, habit is so strong. If you normally eat or drink or smoke during certain activities or at certain times, the link has to be broken....and replaced with some healthier response.

I do not smoke, but I would imagine the triggers are similar.

Posted: **Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:56 pm**

I think it is very difficult to not think about food and meals. I am the one who shops for our food and also the one who prepares it. It is also very dangerous for me not to think about what my next meal is going to be. That was one of the failures of intuitive eating for me. If I don't think about what I am going to eat, then my default setting is not a good thing. So what I have done is shift the emphasis to trying new vegetables, making friends with the folks at the farmer's market, trying new recipes that are quick, healthy, and tasty. I read a lot about nutrition and yes, weight loss and exercise. I guess I am a lot like BrightAngel. I am an older woman who has fought with food and dieting all my life. Now I have just made friends with food and cooking and like BA, it has become a sort of hobby.

Posted: **Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:01 pm**

I didn't mean not thinking about food at all, but just a difference in the emphasis, perhaps that the thoughts are less about the problems of food and less about the importance of being thin. I agree that IE left too much up to chance and isn't even accurate in that most thin people also often plan ahead and don't just decide at the last minute what they'll eat.

I guess I'm talking about a personal problem.

It is one I plan to work on after my birthday on Sept. 26.

Don't mean this to shut down comments, if anyone still cares to add any.

Posted: **Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:41 pm**

I like the idea of not obsessing over clothing size, weight, cellulite, etc. And I see where you are coming from I think. I don't won't to keep going from one diet to another. I like being settled in and in that sense do other things with my mind and time.

For now, I am off to the farmer's market.

Posted: **Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:00 pm**

I'm grateful that this thread was reinstated. There is a lot of food for thought in there. Media images, thought directions, food culture.

Mostly, it made me think about different food cultures within national cultures. Family culture and office culture, for example, make a big difference.

I used to work in a gym and needless to say was a lot thinner and fitter. I'm not a person who works out easily. In fact I try dodging it as much as possible. But with all the support about complying with my own goals on days when it was tough and the support about not snacking it was easy enough.

Now I work in an office where the food culture is gluttony. There seem to be cakes and chocolates, roasted peanuts and chips popping up and going round every afternoon. I stick to NoS but sometimes it's hard. However, everyone of my co-workers has put on between 5 and 10 kilos or roughly between 1 and 2 stone in the last year so that's a good reason not to give in.

Either way, my point is that even within your cultures it will depend on the people you're surrounding yourself with (sometimes on purpose, sometimes not). Therefore my conclusion is that it's not about where I grew up, where I find myself, or what food culture surrounds me. It's my responsibility to change the food cultures in my surroundings.

And in the meantime I happily think about food in a healthy, traditional way.

Posted: **Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:19 am**

I was definitely stuck in a rut where I was thinking about food all the time... Now I really don't tend to unless I am food shopping or eating. I found some old diarys recently they are soo sad- all of these good food/ bad food lists and menu plans and anxst about which dietary approach was the healthiest and how can I lose 10lbs- it's ironic as it seems the less I think about food the healthier I feel and the slimmer I have become.

It was a slow process to reach this place... I'm not really sure when it happened but my goodness I feel much happier without all that food anxst filling my head- what a waaste of a life!

I also think reading about food somehow made me feel like I was 'doing something' and actually made me less active ( after a certain point- some info I learnt has been great- but once you know something- you have to do it not read about it over and over!)

nosnos

Posted: **Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:31 pm**

My plan to handle this for now is to try for a few weeks just having 2 meals a day. I have been gaining on 3 small 8 inch plates with good, healthy, real foods. I just need to eat less I suppose. This will keep me from thinking about food for at least one less meal and I will also be out of the kitchen. We'll see.

Posted: **Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:38 pm**

It sounds weird, but I 'mummified' my wallet and stuck it inside of the camera bag I carry with me all of the time. Keep various electronic gizmos and gadgets in there -- yes it's a camera bag, not a 'man purse' ..Even has Nikon logo on it. The wrapping consists of handkerchiefs wrapped around it, paper towels with little no s logos on it as well as various inspirational little sayings, etc... and rubber bands holding it all.. Probably about 10 'layers' between the hankies and paper towels, and then final layer is an old sock that I can't wear any more since it has a hole in it... Each layer has 2-20 rubber bands or so on them... The idea is that if I can't get to my money, I won't be tempted to spend it. It's worked ingeniously so far. I still can get to it if I really need to, but at least the embarrassment of having to undo all those layers and the time to do it makes me think about it, and not spend on exessive junkfood at convenience stores or cafeteria here at work like I used to do almost daily.

Posted: **Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:57 am**

mastermesh wrote:It sounds weird, but I 'mummified' my wallet and stuck it inside of the camera bag I carry with me all of the time. Keep various electronic gizmos and gadgets in there -- yes it's a camera bag, not a 'man purse' ..Even has Nikon logo on it. The wrapping consists of handkerchiefs wrapped around it, paper towels with little no s logos on it as well as various inspirational little sayings, etc... and rubber bands holding it all.. Probably about 10 'layers' between the hankies and paper towels, and then final layer is an old sock that I can't wear any more since it has a hole in it... Each layer has 2-20 rubber bands or so on them... The idea is that if I can't get to my money, I won't be tempted to spend it. It's worked ingeniously so far. I still can get to it if I really need to, but at least the embarrassment of having to undo all those layers and the time to do it makes me think about it, and not spend on exessive junkfood at convenience stores or cafeteria here at work like I used to do almost daily.

Bravo! What a great, out-of-the-box solution!

Everyday Systems

making life not surround thoughts of food is the key

making life not surround thoughts of food is the key

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