counting days on plan and self sabotage

MJ7910 · Post by **MJ7910** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:08 pm

been thinking a lot about AA and people in recovery from chemical dependency. you know how they say that they dont' like to count their "days clean" sometimes because it makes them mess up. has anyone heard of this line of thinking? it's like self sabotage. well that makes me think about counting to 21 and why i've been unsuccessful. i know it's just a mind game/mind trick but it's interesting. i get to a certain point and i almost want to self sabotage. like it takes off the pressure or something. yesterday was tempted to snack after dinner but then i caught myself and figured out i wasn't really hungry, so why!? this is such an interesting concept, we dont' want to succeed. other diets, i wanted to succeed but i would also find myself self sabotaging. maybe it's just in how you view it. but for now i'm going to pretend i don't know when 21 days are up!

noni · Post by **noni** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:12 pm

When my son-in-law became free of drugs via help from rehab, my daughter would congratulate him each month he was 'clean' and find out that is NOT what to do! It seems a more sensitive area than food issues, but with some NoSer's I suppose marking good days aren't as encouraging as it may be for others. I believe some time ago Reinhard said he was down to only marking the red days.

I have done 21 days successfully on No S in the past and more recently when I restarted, multiple times. It made no difference in my compliance afterwards, sorry to say.

leafy_greens · Post by **leafy_greens** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:15 pm

Since No S and AA are about permanent lifestyle changes, I wonder if the sabotage is rebellion about having to follow these programs "forever." At least with No S, you can have your "drug" on the weekend, whereas with AA you aren't ever supposed to have it. I can understand sabotage on any other diet because it's usually weird food or weird eating habits.

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:16 am

I don't really like the concept of self-sabotage. For one thing, it usually makes people feel worse, and feeling worse is not associated with success. Plus, I just think it is natural for the habit to put up a fight. It is a neurochemical pattern. Most people will go through stages thwarting it. I don't call that self-sabotage. I know there is a theory about it, but we are dealing with the unseen and most explanations can't really be proved. Also, if you do lose, it is also natural for the body to "argue" a bit, but that seems to go away if you just outlast it. In fact, just about everything can be thwarted if you just outlast it. Believe that you are bigger than the habit. You "just" hold on longer than it does. I know that sounds naive but it's pretty much what it boils down to. And honestly, it is hardly ever more than a few hours. Possibly very anxious hours, but tolerable.

vmsurbat · Post by **vmsurbat** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:58 am

oolala53 wrote:I don't really like the concept of self-sabotage. ... Plus, I just think it is natural for the habit to put up a fight. It is a neurochemical pattern. ... In fact, just about everything can be thwarted if you just outlast it. Believe that you are bigger than the habit. You "just" hold on longer than it does. I know that sounds naive but it's pretty much what it boils down to. And honestly, it is hardly ever more than a few hours. Possibly very anxious hours, but tolerable.

I absolutely agree with this. Old habits/patterns are comforting in the way all old, familiar things are. So when stress hits (and making GOOD changes is stressful--this is one thing I sometimes forget), the desire for something familiar and comfortable can lead us down the old habit path.

This is one reason why inculcating new habits/new thinking/new "comforts" is so important for long-term success. It is a very forward way of thinking of where you are going/doing/being.

I personally didn't care to use habitcal for tracking success because any reds (now in the past) weighted down the present. Especially in the early days of NoSing, I needed to focus on the now (my new habits today) not the past (marked with greens, reds, yellows), nor the future (why worry what I'm going to do five days from now?). I needed all my resolve to keep to the 3 meals, no snacks, no sweets, no seconds habit right now.

Minkymoo · Post by **Minkymoo** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:59 am

The 21 day thing doesn't work for a lot of people, so I say drop it if it doesn't motivate you personally.

If you want to draw parallels with 12 step recovery they talk about "Just for today..." as a mantra to take the pressure of abstinence off... as most can manage to go without a drink (substitute snack etc) for a day, so just avoid it (or keep to N days) one day at a time and leave the future to sort itself out.

SpiritSong · Post by **SpiritSong** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:04 pm

oolala53 wrote:I don't really like the concept of self-sabotage. For one thing, it usually makes people feel worse, and feeling worse is not associated with success. Plus, I just think it is natural for the habit to put up a fight. It is a neurochemical pattern.

This phenomenon is called "extinction." The old behavior will make attempts to come back, and generally the last attempt is the strongest. If you give in, it strengthens the bad habit because now the brain knows you have a limit of resistance. If you can hold out through the extinction period, your new habit is stronger than ever.

The problem is people see these extinction attempts as a personal weakness, and they're not. Just because you really, really want that snack, second, or sweet doesn't mean you are a weak person. It means you have a strong habit.

This process can actually help you along, because the more times you resist, the weaker the old habit becomes. If you are having trouble with this type of situation, I recommend the book "Eating Less" by Gillian Riley.

MJ7910 · Post by **MJ7910** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:12 pm

i love this idea of thinking of it as extinction, not "self sabotage"... the habit wants to come back of snacking, sweets, seconds, i just have to be strong enough during Ndays to not let it happen. if it does happen, it's not "self sabotage" it's just that the previous habits i have done for most of my life are strong! just trying to resist it is a step in the right direction. if i completely resist it that is awesome, but if i can't, no reason to worry about it, move on! i have to start doing this. ok so relabel it as "old habits die hard" and that way when i feel extinction effect start to happen i can know what it is. also the whole "abstinence violation effect" which basically has to do with black or white thinking. saying that once you violate abstinence the failure tends to be worse because of black or white thinking. it happens a lot in abstinence only programs for drug and alcohol treatment. or maybe WTH effect is reallly that... i should go back and read that part from psychology texts!

also i dont' use habit cal because like you said those reds can really affect my next week. if i feel like i'm already down from a bad week it doesn't really encourage me, makes me feel like i'm a failure and encourages more of the behavior i'm trying to get away from (ironically).